Interview by M. Sayan with Rêber APO (Part 2 of 2) Read Part 1 HERE
M. Sayan: I also made this statement because I wanted to ask this question. I said there is a difficulty; you have come a long way, but you still have a long way to go. That is one difficulty; the other is how to spread the change in society. We do not believe that all Kurds and Turks will go to the mountains or come to this school. The task is like a fuse that will explode the whole society. But how will this explosion happen?
Rêber APO: That is the avant-garde concept. That is understandable. The pioneers, i.e. the avant-garde, must be created. I accept that.
M. Sayan: You have this position, you have a special life.
Rêber APO: I said earlier that killing the man in me was an incredible thing. Killing the masculinity around me is just as incredible. If women are to lead this struggle and participate in society, a way must be found for them. These are basically great revolutionary acts. The Kurds can fight better than anyone else. They also know poverty, hunger, have courage and are willing to make sacrifices. There is no lack of that. These are positive, strong qualities. But if the people were left alone with these qualities and were not led by the party, then these qualities could be easily exploited by the enemy, by the rulers. The strength of Turkish colonialism is based on making these people work for themselves. Even the Germans see a great opportunity for themselves here. They also exploit it. People have to use these qualities for themselves. A classic man, for example, can become a super-donkey because of his classicism. Everyone can ride him, he will never complain. That has to be changed. If we can kill this classic type of man, we will have taken a big step. On the other hand, there is the incredible dependence of the Kurdish woman – this is also the social tradition or normality. Because of the concept of honor, the woman shows incredible loyalty. On the surface, this seems very honorable, but it means an incredible isolation of the woman. That is the law. And how do I even have to change these conditions in a revolutionary phase? I must always keep in mind the connection to the masses. To avoid misunderstandings….
M. Sayan: This situation is very critical. The difficulty lies not in producing new ideas, but in introducing them into society. This is where the political skill lies.
Rêber APO: I can call it an eternal game, a theater or a never-ending movie. I am playing a real game, a perfect actor. Our situation resembles an ever deeper and more attractive theater play. It is becoming more and more exciting. It has developed and is being watched with curiosity all over the world. There is a connection with this approach. Everyone is currently asking themselves “what will become of us”, “what will become of this “killing masculinity” and “what will become of this way of life”. All these questions have their place in this system. There is no other way to take revenge on this backward society. It’s not worth living like this, neither as a man nor as a woman. I have always wondered how it is possible to bury this way of life instead of living it. That’s one of the reasons why I started the war. As you know, it is difficult to take on the responsibility of war. Many friends don’t know how I took on this responsibility. It is a heavy burden, not everyone can carry it. When Siam Sait started the war, he couldn’t stand it for a week. Barzani didn’t even last 24 hours after his relations with the Iranian Shah broke off. But I’ve been holding out on my own for years, and the movement continues to grow.
M. Sayan: Many people get lost in the process, as the examples show.
Rêber APO: Of course, because that is a huge burden.
M. Sayan: Even under a lighter load, you go into….
Rêber APO: Of course, for example in a small dispute. I wish our structure would understand and share the responsibility. But everyone avoids it. They are prepared to fight under the most difficult conditions, but not to take responsibility and share it.
M. Sayan: How should the development spread in society? In other words, how should the newly created relationship flow into society? In what way should this development take place? I have already said that it is not difficult to develop new ideas, but it is very difficult to ensure that they are reflected in everyday social life without jeopardizing the relationship with the masses. We were looking for a solution.
Rêber APO: It is very important to take responsibility for the war. Not everyone has to understand that, it’s our business. Yes, I said it must be killed! Here is what I mean: It is very important to give the order to kill. But what must be killed? The things that are not worth living. If I were crazy, if my sense of responsibility were not so strong, such work could not be done. If I were irresponsible, how could I intensify the war? I would be finished immediately. What I’m trying to say is that I find it very difficult to judge people. I am aware of my responsibility. That was one of my decisions. Instead of continuing to live like this, these things must be destroyed. How should people live if they want to live? At that point, I led them to fight, to go to war. Why? If they want to live, a life worse than death awaits them. And if they don’t want to fight, they would have to be killed. If the cause is not brought to fruition, I like death very much. Then we will be rid of this shame. The likelihood of people living depends on how they fight. That is a basis for the decision.
As I said earlier, masculinity also means domination. I observe that they want to imitate this aspect. It is precisely on this point that I try to strengthen the right kind of mechanism. To realize one’s masculinity on the right foundations. My observation applies not only to our society, but to all societies under male domination. There is a peculiarity in the concept of gender. And more or less all women know that. I didn’t invent that. I’m just trying to clearly define the role of male domination in politics. Especially in oppressed societies or those subject to dictatorship, there is a great connection between male domination and gender domination over women. This is particularly pronounced in our reality. The man in our society compensates for all his humiliation and powerlessness by exercising power over women. That is his masculinity.
M. Sayan: That’s where he covers his weakness.
Rêber APO: Yes, he is brave and happy there. There is only a helpless woman there. What is this masculinity worth to the woman? I realized it early on. It’s a terrible masculinity, the woman’s situation is clear. I’ve always refused to be that kind of man. The woman calls him “my husband”. She says “my husband” completely unconsciously. For her, he is God, Lord, Pasha, everything. But your husband is finished, woman. Look behind the mask, there’s nothing there at all. But she just doesn’t want to see it. She has given her whole life to the male ideology. This woman is going down, and that’s the end of the chapter for her.
M. Sayan: They have no existence of their own.
Rêber APO: All their skills are blunted. I’ve observed it in many young women. And also with slightly older men. It makes me angry. Some may say that it’s tradition and therefore normal. Since my soul is very sensitive, I put on a good face for a long time. But that is wrong. In due course, I will call them to account. The domination of men over women may not be allowed, but it happens all the time. Everyone does it. I will fight against it. If you really want to become a man, I will set the conditions. There’s no point in boasting like that to a helpless woman. As you know, the crude understanding of gender means complete domination. For me, this is the crux of the gender issue. Why do we draw a dangerous political conclusion from this? Sexuality must become natural. I think my experiences also play an important role in this. Look at African society. Sexuality is natural there. In our reality, a woman’s sexuality is reduced to the question of how to get a man off. “I have given you my sexuality, now you have to feed me for the rest of your life.”
M. Sayan: What else can she do, she has nothing else?
Rêber APO: But there is an incredible fetishism that results in obsession.
M. Sayan: The man is obsessed. In any case. And the woman possesses nothing but that.
Rêber APO: Exactly.
M. Sayan: This is their only property.
Rêber APO: It possesses nothing, has no power and no consciousness.
M. Sayan: You can’t even talk about social organization.
Rêber APO: Exactly.
M. Sayan: That is their only weapon.
Maybe a few children. That’s their whole world.
M. Sayan: The children are not even hers, but her husband’s.
Rêber APO: Correct. The husband is suffocated here. He is the mendacious ruler and the wife has to sell the most natural of all things. I see no difference between a brothel and the family. No one should take it the wrong way, but it really is like that.
M. Sayan: I am of the same opinion.
Rêber APO: This ratio is not right. It should not be treated in a calculating way. Man and woman should not see and use each other as commodities. The one (man) says ‘I control you’, and thus binds the woman to himself and buys her – this type of relationship is not allowed. Unfortunately, this is the social reality. It leads to duplicity and to seeing each other as commodities, to unkindness, lack of morals and mendacity. He may look like a man, but he is not a man. She looks feminine, but is not a woman. My outcry is directed against this. You have to understand that. I’ve experienced it, but I didn’t take part in it. And that’s what most people can’t do, or that’s what I want to realize in the PKK. This has to do with how the PKK wages the struggle and that it is about killing masculinity. The fighters die because of this. It is indescribable, on this basis the woman overcomes herself and becomes a martyr. There are thousands of examples of this. I’m not saying this to make a theory. In my opinion, this is a victory, a great revolution and a work that has bound me for several years. I think I have unlocked the secret of success.